The Top 17 Most I.P.O.T.F.S.B.

[SkyBlues42]

I'd actually like to see Edwards' top 10 influential follows.

RJ Bell might be associated with a pick selling site that is full of handicappers with awful records and poor techniques, but he IS influential. It's not like Wagerminds said "follow this guy because he picks winners and runs the cleanest pick selling site." They really just said, individually, that he is an influential person in the industry, which is factual.

[Edward-RAS]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Absolutely Millman deserves blame and should know better. I've had such discussions with him on multiple occassions. I just forwarded one e-mail I sent him last November to your Gmail address.

Do we all agree that all of these media outlets should be more informed, responsible, and make better decisions as to who they give exposure to? If no, why not? If yes, what is so different from me being critical of Wagerminds for having certain people on their list?

[Beyond the Bets]

(07-15-2012 11:02 AM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Two wrongs don't make a right. Absolutely Millman deserves blame and should know better. I've had such discussions with him on multiple occassions. I just forwarded one e-mail I sent him last November to your Gmail address.

What was Millman's reply? Also, it's clear that Millman disagrees with you, otherwise he wouldn't continue to have these people on his shows.

Have you lost respect for Millman?

(07-15-2012 11:02 AM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Do we all agree that all of these media outlets should be more informed, responsible, and make better decisions as to who they give exposure to?

Yes, of course. Which is why I think bickering over a Twitter list is so pointless and insignificant. You are much better served trying to convince people at ESPN, etc., that RJ isn't worth their time. Until those guys "get it," nobody else will.

Their reach is too widespread.

[Edward-RAS]

He wanted me to go on the air and trash other services, which I wasn't willing to do. He says there just aren't enough reputable people in the industry to interview and write about. I hope he improves and at least gets tougher on the ones he does have on.

[Wagerminds]

(07-15-2012 11:02 AM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Two wrongs don't make a right. Absolutely Millman deserves blame and should know better. I've had such discussions with him on multiple occassions. I just forwarded one e-mail I sent him last November to your Gmail address.

Do we all agree that all of these media outlets should be more informed, responsible, and make better decisions as to who they give exposure to? If no, why not? If yes, what is so different from me being critical of Wagerminds for having certain people on their list?

Okay, not to go all John Stuart Mill on you but this all boils down to the fact that you're seemingly unable to distinguish between normative and descriptive. Our list wasn't a list of people we believe OUGHT to be the most influential. It's a list of the people who ARE the most influential. You can hate the people on the list or love them but your feelings about their business practices have (sadly for you) no bearing on their influence.

If we made a list of the most successful college football coaches, that list would include Bobby Bowden and Joe Paterno and others who, normatively, aren't and shouldn't be role models. If we had a list of the best running backs, we'd include OJ Simpson. But guess what? That doesn't mean we condone double homicides (or single homicides either, just to be clear).

Don't confuse what IS with what SHOULD be.

[Jaybiz773]

One of my tweets was quoted here and I although I have not read the 6 pages plus of discussion I'd like to throw in my $0.02.

I really enjoy the stuff BTB is doing, but whenever he tweets out what comes off as a PG/RJ promo I often chime in expressing the fact I think any promo of Rj's stuff is enabling him to scam ppl.

I was banned from PG a year or so ago. I regularly called out their cappers for not keeping accurate records, and due to a tweet I had claiming there weren't any winning pick sellers on his site I was banned. In all honesty I could give a shit. I bet semi-professionally (still work a day job 20 hrs/wk) and betting makes up a decent portion of my annual income (i don't sell plays, and don't ever plan to). I mention this because for me I see right through the scam that is pregame. Anyone who is doing this as a job does. the fact they are considered a reliable source of info while they outright scam their customers makes my stomach turn.

They position themselves as "info providers" just to get traffic and sell their losing crap to the less informed.

Personally I think RJ is a class-A scumbag and his business practices tell the tale. Get mentions on ESPN and the like to drive traffic to his site, then scam the people who buy plays with an expectation of +EV based on his marketing. I would love to see more people call it for what it is instead of saying things like "yeah but his tweets are informative even if he is in the business of selling shit bundles". the fact is his twitter is nothing more but marketing fodder to sell losers. You guys know what he pays his cappers??? 33% So that $30 play you buy....its a $10 pick for the capper. These bums are maybe making $1k a month selling. Not exactly my definition of a "pro".

I really wish RJ/PG wasn't promoted by people who are what I consider to be some for the good guys. But at the end of the day my goal is to beat the books and while its an annoyance, not sure trying to clean up the industry is +EV longterm.

[phillygodfather]

Can't we all just get along.. Fact#1 R.J Bell is a very nice person.. Fact#2 R.J Bell doesnt scam anyone out of any money.. Fact#3 R.J Bell and Vegas Runner begged me to come work at Pregame.. Fact#4 I didn't agree with how they did things and quit.. Fact #5 Pregame does pass along some very entertaining information Fact#6 R.J Bell is very Influential on Twitter Fact#7 R.J Bell isn't a Pro Gambler Fact#8 R.J Bells knows a lot of Pro Gamblers Fact#9 I have a hangover from Roosters Wedding.. Fact#10 If the people who sell plays can't show a betting ticket or a screenshot of what they bet then they themselves have no confidence in the play they are releasing.. Get Money Yo!

[Edward-RAS]

(07-15-2012 11:56 AM)Wagerminds Wrote:  Okay, not to go all John Stuart Mill on you but this all boils down to the fact that you're seemingly unable to distinguish between normative and descriptive. Our list wasn't a list of people we believe OUGHT to be the most influential. It's a list of the people who ARE the most influential. You can hate the people on the list or love them but your feelings about their business practices have (sadly for you) no bearing on their influence.

If we made a list of the most successful college football coaches, that list would include Bobby Bowden and Joe Paterno and others who, normatively, aren't and shouldn't be role models. If we had a list of the best running backs, we'd include OJ Simpson. But guess what? That doesn't mean we condone double homicides (or single homicides either, just to be clear).

Don't confuse what IS with what SHOULD be.

There was no indication in your piece that editors of Wagerminds viewed anyone on the list unfavorably (if you even do) or that anyone on the list was influential for the "wrong" reasons in any way.

It's fine to include O.J. Simpson & Joe Paterno as long as you acknowledge their elephants in the room. You failed to do that with Bell and others and as a result the piece equaled an endorsement of them.

I don't know what else to tell you. You've joined the likes of other media outlets in giving credibility and sending traffic to Pregame.com. If you're proud of this, congrats. We move on.

[Beyond the Bets]

Thanks for the post, Jay Biz.

Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that RJ tweets out a "Pregame exclusive," and it links to an article on his home page.

HEADLINE: Online sports betting legalized in the US!

Within the article, there are quotes - all exclusive to Pregame - and the quotes are from government officials, industry insiders, etc. Sure enough, the story checks out and Pregame has itself one heck of a scoop. After a long fight, online sports betting is now legalized.

For a site like ours, a news and information site, this is huge news. We've covered the offshore industry since our inception and have written plenty of commentary related to sports betting politics, etc. And now, after doom-and-gloom predictions, sports betting suddenly becomes legalized!?

Wow! What a story!

So, do we write a story on our home page without attributing Pregame? Do we not retweet RJ because we think that he is "bad for the industry," or whatever? Of course not. We give credit where it's due, we report that Pregame "broke the story," and we go from there.

The guys at Yahoo! Sports, I assure you, hate the living shit out of ESPN and all of its shady, unethical practices. How many times has an ESPN reporter - namely Andy Katz and Marc Stein - ripped off a Yahoo report after the fact, before claiming, "ESPN has confirmed," or "sources have confirmed to ESPN." It's bullshit. That's ESPN not giving credit where it's due.

But Yahoo - always - gives proper credit when ESPN scoops them. Sure, the Yahoo guys hate writing that line ("ESPN was first to report") and yeah, their editors don't like it when they get beat. But it's the right thing to do.

[Edward-RAS]

Good point BTB, but in this particular case, WM had no obligation to include Pregame in their piece.

[Wagerminds]

(07-15-2012 12:31 PM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  

(07-15-2012 11:56 AM)Wagerminds Wrote:  Okay, not to go all John Stuart Mill on you but this all boils down to the fact that you're seemingly unable to distinguish between normative and descriptive. Our list wasn't a list of people we believe OUGHT to be the most influential. It's a list of the people who ARE the most influential. You can hate the people on the list or love them but your feelings about their business practices have (sadly for you) no bearing on their influence.

If we made a list of the most successful college football coaches, that list would include Bobby Bowden and Joe Paterno and others who, normatively, aren't and shouldn't be role models. If we had a list of the best running backs, we'd include OJ Simpson. But guess what? That doesn't mean we condone double homicides (or single homicides either, just to be clear).

Don't confuse what IS with what SHOULD be.

There was no indication in your piece that editors of Wagerminds viewed anyone on the list unfavorably (if you even do) or that anyone on the list was influential for the "wrong" reasons in any way.

It's fine to include O.J. Simpson & Joe Paterno as long as you acknowledge their elephants in the room. You failed to do that with Bell and others and as a result the piece equaled an endorsement of them.

I don't know what else to tell you. You've joined the likes of other media outlets in giving credibility and sending traffic to Pregame.com. If you're proud of this, congrats. We move on.

So when you say we've "joined the likes of other media outlets in giving credibility and sending traffic to Pregame.com," you mean we've joined other sites like ESPN, Bloomberg, ABC News, Beyond the Bets and Handicapper.net, right? Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Oh, and can you send us the names of the sites that have done the work of exposing touts like we have and also aren't "in the likes" of those of us who have "given credibility" to Pregame?

[phillygodfather]

Fact #11 Ed Ras does not like R.J Bell

Let's solve this the Philly way and put the gloves on Yo!!!

I could train Ed Ras and I would ask Floyd Mayweather Sr if he could train R.J Bell

[phillygodfather]

Yo Mr.BTB set it up.. I would Call Floyd SR in a heart beat..

My good friend Mike Jones is now Officially training with Floyd SR

[Edward-RAS]

(07-15-2012 12:50 PM)Wagerminds Wrote:  So when you say we've "joined the likes of other media outlets in giving credibility and sending traffic to Pregame.com," you mean we've joined other sites like ESPN, Bloomberg, ABC News, Beyond the Bets and Handicapper.net, right? Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Oh, and can you send us the names of the sites that have done the work of exposing touts like we have and also aren't "in the likes" of those of us who have "given credibility" to Pregame?

Yes, I had a link up on my site to Pregame from 5+ years ago. It wasn't a written endorsement, just a link in exchange for a testimonial on RAS. Either way, I immediately acknowledged my mistake and removed it. You continue to defend your decision.

There is no doubt about it, both you and BTB have done a great job exposing bad touts, better than anyone else out there, that is why I held you to a higher standard and expected so much better in this instance. If it was anyone else it would have just been business as usual, but if guys like you and BTB don't get it right, who will?

I have no ill will towards RJ Bell. I had a few business interactions with him a decade or so ago, he probably misrepresented the reach of his FreePicksByEmail newsletter, and got me to pay more for advertising than it was worth, but wasn't horrible, so no big deal. He's probably a great business person and does well for himself, I just don't agree with the way he does it, and I don't think he should be getting support from people who have knowledge and understanding of his business model. If you don't know or you don't get it, fine, but if you do then stop supporting it.

[phillygodfather]

(07-15-2012 01:22 PM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  

(07-15-2012 12:50 PM)Wagerminds Wrote:  So when you say we've "joined the likes of other media outlets in giving credibility and sending traffic to Pregame.com," you mean we've joined other sites like ESPN, Bloomberg, ABC News, Beyond the Bets and Handicapper.net, right? Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Oh, and can you send us the names of the sites that have done the work of exposing touts like we have and also aren't "in the likes" of those of us who have "given credibility" to Pregame?

Yes, I had a link up on my site to Pregame from 5+ years ago. It wasn't a written endorsement, just a link in exchange for a testimonial on RAS. Either way, I immediately acknowledged my mistake and removed it. You continue to defend your decision.

There is no doubt about it, both you and BTB have done a great job exposing bad touts, better than anyone else out there, that is why I held you to a higher standard and expected so much better in this instance. If it was anyone else it would have just been business as usual, but if guys like you and BTB don't get it right, who will?

I have no ill will towards RJ Bell. I had a few business interactions with him a decade or so ago, he probably misrepresented the reach of his FreePicksByEmail newsletter, and got me to pay more for advertising than it was worth, but wasn't horrible, so no big deal. He's probably a great business person and does well for himself, I just don't agree with the way he does it, and I don't think he should be getting support from people who have knowledge and understanding of his business model. If you don't know or you don't get it, fine, but if you do then stop supporting it.

No direspect intended but when only 1% of the gambling market knows what you are talking about, why would you even waste your time..

[Cub]

Ed has to be the worst PR guy in the history of the internet. You'd think he'd be smart enough just to hire someone to keep from making an ass of himself in nearly every thread he enters.

[Jaybiz773]

Hey Philly didn't u used to sell $50 plays on PG???

Remind me again what was your record there?

I know ppl here and elsewhere believe your actually sharp, but numbers don't lie.

Facts are facts. RJ sells crap. Vegas Runner lives in a house in the name of his mail order bride who recently filed for bankruptcy.

Pls don't even get me started. Like I said it means nothing to me but the well of scammers at PG is deep and when this guy gets put on ESPN as a so-called expert, he should be called out as well as every loser who's picks he has pimped.

You know some thing else??? Sports books pay sites to send over losing players. I'm about 10000% positive PG is getting kickbacks from losers on sports books referrals. This industry is so slimy.

[phillygodfather]

(07-15-2012 02:22 PM)Jaybiz773 Wrote:  Hey Philly didn't u used to sell $50 plays on PG???

Remind me again what was your record there?

I know ppl here and elsewhere believe your actually sharp, but numbers don't lie.

Facts are facts. RJ sells crap. Vegas Runner lives in a house in the name of his mail order bride who recently filed for bankruptcy.

Pls don't even get me started. Like I said it means nothing to me but the well of scammers at PG is deep and when this guy gets put on ESPN as a so-called expert, he should be called out as well as every loser who's picks he has pimped.

You know some thing else??? Sports books pay sites to send over losing players. I'm about 10000% positive PG is getting kickbacks from losers on sports books referrals. This industry is so slimy.

Do me a favor and show me a betting ticket or a screen shot.. Prove that you gamble bro

[phillygodfather]

(07-15-2012 02:30 PM)phillygodfather Wrote:  

(07-15-2012 02:22 PM)Jaybiz773 Wrote:  Hey Philly didn't u used to sell $50 plays on PG???

Remind me again what was your record there?

I know ppl here and elsewhere believe your actually sharp, but numbers don't lie.

Facts are facts. RJ sells crap. Vegas Runner lives in a house in the name of his mail order bride who recently filed for bankruptcy.

Pls don't even get me started. Like I said it means nothing to me but the well of scammers at PG is deep and when this guy gets put on ESPN as a so-called expert, he should be called out as well as every loser who's picks he has pimped.

You know some thing else??? Sports books pay sites to send over losing players. I'm about 10000% positive PG is getting kickbacks from losers on sports books referrals. This industry is so slimy.

Do me a favor and show me a betting ticket or a screen shot.. Prove that you gamble bro

This was 1 Greg Shaker 842-679 55.4% 171.0 $17,098
2 Goodfella 501-396 55.9% 68.8 $6,878
3 Mike Hook 791-713 52.6% 59.4 $5,935
4 Spartan 915-829 52.5% 48.5 $4,854
5 Joe Gavazzi 313-262 54.4% 42.0 $4,197
6 Dwayne Bryant 330-273 54.7% 27.2 $2,724
7 Andre Gomes 1169-1047 52.8% 26.0 $2,602
8 Bryan Leonard 132-109 54.8% 18.2 $1,820
9 Philly Godfather 131-119 52.4% 17.0 $1,703
10 Sac Lawson 246-228 51.9% 4.9 $488

11 Dan Bebe 93-87 51.7% (0.8) $(80)
12 Dave Essler 576-553 51.0% (6.1) $(611)
13 Tony George 312-292 51.7% (6.6) $(659)
14 Brent Brooks 51-58 46.8% (10.5) $(1,050)
15 Evan Altemus 363-362 50.1% (16.5) $(1,645)
16 Stephen Nover 164-159 50.8% (16.6) $(1,664)
17 Ben Burns 1044-873 54.5% (19.3) $(1,932)
18 Johnny Detroit 382-373 50.6% (27.7) $(2,774)
19 The King Maker 37-52 41.6% (40.3) $(4,030)
20 Larry Del Genio 721-682 51.4% (40.3) $(4,030)
21 Cincinnati Kid 28-45 38.4% (45.0) $(4,500)
22 Vegas Runner 702-660 51.5% (63.1) $(6,305)
23 Stan Sharpe 235-234 50.1% (70.2) $(7,016)
24 Marc Lawrence 384-373 50.7% (71.2) $(7,115)
25 Denver Money 280-304 47.9% (77.0) $(7,695)
26 Rocky Atkinson 335-343 49.4% (94.5) $(9,450)
27 Rob Crowne 155-175 47.0% (99.7) $(9,970)
28 King Creole 259-281 48.0% (109.3) $(10,928)
29 Marco D'Angelo 456-490 48.2% (119.4) $(11,943)
30 Gill Alexander 466-511 47.7% (138.7) $(13,865)
31 Larry Ness 731-713 50.6% (165.9) $(16,592)
32 JR ODonnell 471-484 49.3% (168.7) $(16,871)
33 Nick Parsons 763-762 50.0% (352.8) $(35,282) my record at pregame for the very short time I was there

[Jaybiz773]

Those that know don't talk, those that talk don't know.

I ain't got shit to prove here. What I bet and how much is quite irrelevant. Those who matter to me know how sharp I am. You, RJ and the lot of bullshit artists aren't worth the time of day.