The Top 17 Most I.P.O.T.F.S.B.

[RyanParrill]

First off, bravo for an actual discussion.

(07-13-2012 08:37 AM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  So, anyways, I'm not mad at Edward - like, at all - and I really, REALLY hope my somewhat aggressive tone (admittedly in good fun) isn't making anybody think that I'm getting testy here. But, like, come on. Sites like ours have been great for sites like RAS, even if only marginally so, and it's not like we have any real tangible benefit by doing some of this stuff.

I agree with this.

(07-13-2012 08:08 AM)mount187 Wrote:  In defense of Edward-RAS, I think his point is valid that putting someone like RJ on a list of "Influential" people somewhat legitimizes what they're doing on their site, which is a shame. Their business model feeds off of duping people out of their money, which is infuriating to me. The fact that RJ is on ESPN is mind-blowing to me (the World-Wide Leader really doesn't do their homework on who provides content for them).

I really agree with this.

[Edward-RAS]

(07-12-2012 05:15 PM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Agree, you have done more than most if not anyone to educate regarding good/bad touts. Still, you are an exception to the norm, and a lot still needs to be done. Your defense of RJ Bell, and he being #7 on this list is a perfect example of this.

Let me reiterate, there is no question BTB has been at the forefront of the battle, but the fact that the guy on the forefront saw no problem with RJ Bell at #7 on the "influential" list, and went on to say he provides value to his followers, illustrates just how much further this site and others have to go.

The story shouldn't be about prominent handicapper A coming on to forum to rat out prominent handicapper B. It should about how many prominent handicappers simply misrepresent themselves and mislead their customers in various ways. This notion of deceit isn't an accusation, it is a widely accepted fact that is easily provable with factual evidence. Despite this, these same prominent handicappers still get respected and acklowedged as credible and reputable by the vast majority of people who cover the industry (and even defended in this thread).

As for traffic and hits, I am sure some of the random articles get a lot of one-time clicks or search engine driven traffic from non-Sports bettors, but I would have to assume most of the repeat/permanent traffic on this site is from people who do bet and care about betting.

[Beyond the Bets]

(07-13-2012 10:41 AM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Your defense of RJ Bell, and he being #7 on this list is a perfect example of this.

Again, Twitter is fun and games to me. It cannot - and will not - change the world. I refuse to take arbitrary lists seriously, and the debate over who is "influential" is a stupid one. Obviously, any list that calls BTB "influential" probably needs to be double checked. Our Twitter account is a joke and I can't believe anybody actually follows the thing. I'm serious. How much Dick Vermeil and Kansas State can people possibly stomach before they say, "Um, yeah, OK. I'm done with that."

On the one hand, you give the impression that Twitter perception is going to give RJ Bell a level of power and influence he wouldn't otherwise enjoy. If Twitter had that ability - particularly when it comes to driving sales - then surely you would be more active on it.

And yet, you aren't. That says something.

You are willing to criticize RJ, his lousy handicappers and his lack of credibility here on this forum, in this thread, and you do so (I assume) because you think it serves a purpose. Yet you don't do it publicly on your Twitter account. That says something.

This thread only has 1,000 views as of this post. Wouldn't your message be far more effective if you tweeted it under your Twitter account? Surely a large chunk of people that follow you also follow RJ? Why not "inform the uninformed," get the word out, and allow sites like mine to take the discussion from there?

You call out RJ, he responds, I write about it.

[Edward-RAS]

(07-13-2012 08:37 AM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  So, anyways, I'm not mad at Edward - like, at all - and I really, REALLY hope my somewhat aggressive tone (admittedly in good fun) isn't making anybody think that I'm getting testy here. But, like, come on. Sites like ours have been great for sites like RAS, even if only marginally so, and it's not like we have any real tangible benefit by doing some of this stuff.

Before getting to the most recent post, just wanted to say we do very much appreciate the endorsements and exposure opportunities given to us here.

[Beyond the Bets]

Edward - I'm sincere about this: If you truly feel this way about RJ and Pregame, you really owe it to your Twitter followers to let them know your perspective. You can simply cut/paste some of the views you've provided in this thread to get you started.

As a credible person in the industry, the message would be a strong one coming from you.

You cry about not being tagged as a "Twitter influential," and yet you defer to sites like mine to do all the dirty work and expose the people you detest.

Well, let's go. Step up your game. Go out there and be influential!

[Beyond the Bets]

"COME ON, EDWARD! SHOW US WHAT YOU GOT! CALL OUT PREGAME ON TWITTER!"

[Edward-RAS]

(07-13-2012 11:16 AM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  Again, Twitter is fun and games to me. It cannot - and will not - change the world. I refuse to take arbitrary lists seriously, and the debate over who is "influential" is a stupid one. Obviously, any list that calls BTB "influential" probably needs to be double checked. Our Twitter account is a joke and I can't believe anybody actually follows the thing. I'm serious. How much Dick Vermeil and Kansas State can people possibly stomach before they say, "Um, yeah, OK. I'm done with that."

On the one hand, you give the impression that Twitter perception is going to give RJ Bell a level of power and influence he wouldn't otherwise enjoy. If Twitter had that ability - particularly when it comes to driving sales - then surely you would be more active on it.

And yet, you aren't. That says something.

You are willing to criticize RJ, his lousy handicappers and his lack of credibility here on this forum, in this thread, and you do so (I assume) because you think it serves a purpose. Yet you don't do it publicly on your Twitter account. That says something.

This thread only has 1,000 views as of this post. Wouldn't your message be far more effective if you tweeted it under your Twitter account? Surely a large chunk of people that follow you also follow RJ? Why not "inform the uninformed," get the word out, and allow sites like mine to take the discussion from there?

You call out RJ, he responds, I write about it.

Let's not discount the power of Twitter. I learned of you and this site solely because of Twitter. Even though our Twitter feed will never be as active as some others, we have really made an effort over the past 13 months to be more active, and our following grew from under 1000 to over 6000 in the past year alone. It is a fantastic and very cost effective marketing tool, and we definitely have driven sales from it.

Believe me, I have wanted to be more vocal about some of the business practices in the industry, but again, as a competitor to these sites, I just don't know if I am in a credible position to be the lead voice in that battle. I touch on a lot of it already here: http://www.handicapper.net/what-makes-us-different.php. I just don't point fingers at specific names.

Again, it is not a Pregame issue. It is a industry wide issue. If roughly 1% of bettors win long term, I guarantee that the percentage of winning services is not any higher. That is actually a good thing to tweet.

[Beyond the Bets]

(07-13-2012 11:36 AM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  I just don't point fingers at specific names.

And because of that, you're part of the problem.

People need something tangible, something specific. There's a reason why news outlets package or pigeon-hole stories. They do it so that viewers can easily follow along; so that viewers know what is important and, more specifically, why.

HEADLINE: "Former football coach used to rape little boys"

Well, surely that happens at least a few times per year at various high schools or colleges across the country. By itself, this would make regional headlines and the story would die out a week later.

HEADLINE: "Former PENN STATE football coach who was JOE PATERNO's right-hand man used to rape little boys"

Ah-ha! Well, now it's newsworthy, and it's going to be sensationalized, and it's going to become a huge story, and it's going to be all over the national news for months until it's resolved.

If you say, "There are a lot of bad touts who have shady practices," the majority of people are going to say, "Well, OF COURSE!" Who doesn't already know that? You aren't breaking any news by saying that the pick-selling industry is a shady one.

But if you get specific - if you tell your readers or followers or subscribers or whoever - that RJ Bell of PREGAME, the dude who is on ESPN, is actually a "fraud," that his handicappers stink, that they have shady biz practices (and then you explain them), well, NOW we have a discussion.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have an interest in getting specific. You'd rather be vague and you'd rather lob criticisms in places where they might not be seen.

Criticizing the folks you despise or detest?

• "Doesn't serve my needs."
  

• "Bad for business."
  

• "Don't want enemies."
  

Well, again. That's not a me problem.

That's a YOU problem.

[Edward-RAS]

(07-13-2012 11:50 AM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  "There are a lot of bad touts who have shady practices," the majority of people are going to say, "Well, OF COURSE!" Who doesn't already know that? You aren't breaking any news by saying that the pick-selling industry is a shady one.

Yes, this is true. My problem is when the media gives credibility, exposure, and acceptance to these common industry practices when they should know better. ESPN, Millman, WagerMinds, BTB, and many others are guilty of this. If I am going to do anything, this is where I would focus my attention. Convincing ESPN not to use Bell as their go to sports betting guy, or Wagerminds not to include Bell/Covers on their influential list, or Millman not to give similar sites positive exposure on his shows and columns, or BTB not to defend Pregame's Twitter, would all be more effective than going on my twitter and slamming a particular site out of the blue.

Again, I am not in the news business. If I was, I would have my people all over this stuff. The sports service industry shouldn't STILL be getting away with these types of practices in 2012.

[Beyond the Bets]

The argument can be made that the tout industry isn't news. Again, we don't recommend any tout sites to people who frequent our site, and I am fairly certain that 99 percent of the folks who are active on this forum don't buy picks.

The only three services you'll ever see us recommend or mention are the quantitative guys and/or those who are largely "above board" and who document everything and are completely transparent.

-Team Rankings (not sure if they even sell picks; but they provide 'em)
-Prediction Machine
-RAS

That's the list.

But yeah, the NEWS in the sports betting industry is NOT the tout industry. Not even close. People don't give a shit, and our readers are less likely to buy picks than those at other sites, anyway.

When people like you don't have an interest in calling out the crooks, it gives me less motivation to care.

"If RAS doesn't care enough about his industry to openly criticize the people doing it wrong, then why should I?"

The best analogy I can provide, given my newspaper/media background, is this: Most people want to read about the NFL, college football and the NBA. Many folks also like college basketball and MLB. NHL? Sure, when it's playoff time. Golf majors? Yep. Tennis? OK.

Women's college basketball?

High school girls softball?

Uh, no. Not close. Women's sports don't interest the overwhelming majority of readers. Similarly, tout talk doesn't interest sports betting readers. It just doesn't.

Your industry is high school girls softball.

[mount187]

(07-13-2012 12:29 PM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  Your industry is high school girls softball.

If this were the NBA, that'd be a Flagrant II, and you'd be out of here!

[Beyond the Bets]

(07-13-2012 12:33 PM)mount187 Wrote:  

(07-13-2012 12:29 PM)Beyond the Bets Wrote:  Your industry is high school girls softball.

If this were the NBA, that'd be a Flagrant II, and you'd be out of here!

FACT: Millions of people worldwide bet on sports, and many millions more have a casual or passing interest in sports betting. The number of people who care about odds, point spreads, etc., is a massive one that couldn't be calculated.

FACT: Only thousands of people buy picks. The number of people earning more than $100,000 selling picks can probably be counted on two hands. Most don't even make $25k or $30k - and many that sell picks have a separate full-time job. In other words: Pick selling (and pick buying) is a tiny blip.

FACT: As a content/news site, if we spent the bulk of our time covering an industry that the large majority of people don't know about or care about, we'd have zero traffic. The tout biz is more important to those who are in it than those who aren't.

[mount187]

I don't care what content you have, but comparing anything on Earth to high school girls softball is just mean. Really ... that's just mean. Nothing created after the invention of high school girls softball is as awful as high school girls softball.

Also, this post, and the previous post were made in jest.

[Edward-RAS]

I think there is more interest in the sports service industry than you realize or acknowledge. A movie was made about it, ESPN and HBO have done features on it, prominent handicappers are featured on TV/radio, and in newspapers all the time. Not only that, but "service thread" areas of forums typically get the most posts and views on the biggest sites out there, including my own forum back in the day when we still had one.

It isn't going to bother me if you or other media outlets don't go after every single scam service out there. I wouldn't do it myself, and couldn't expect or ask that of anyone else. What does bother me is when Wagerminds decides to include Covers/Pregame type twitters on their "influential list", and you decide to defend such a decision. Thus, contributing to this culture of looking the other way and giving credibility and acceptance to these business models. Just because he is a nice guy, or everyone does it, or his twitter is just for fun and people enjoy it, does not make what happens on the actual site okay.

There is where I expect sites like BTB and Wagerminds to know better, and do better.

[kreatture]

(07-13-2012 12:17 PM)Edward-RAS Wrote:  Convincing ESPN not to use Bell as their go to sports betting guy, or Wagerminds not to include Bell/Covers on their influential list, or Millman not to give similar sites positive exposure on his shows and columns, or BTB not to defend Pregame's Twitter, would all be more effective than going on my twitter and slamming a particular site out of the blue.

Just to keep things on a factual basis.. BTB has NEVER defended Pregame's Twitter, only RJ Bell's, and he hasn't defended it on behalf of RJ Bell (the Pregame Owner), but rather RJ Bell (the person).

Pregame's Twitter promotes their handicappers packages and sells itself as a tout service. RJ Bell's Twitter rarely, if ever, sends out a tweet about one of his handicapper's picks package. He uses it to promote himself, and his free forum. Are sales generated from RJ driving viewers to the free content at Pregame Forums? Probably. Are sales generated from ESPN's numerous employee personal Twitter accounts driving viewers to ESPN.com, or Sports Illustrated's employee personal Twitter accounts driving viewers to free content on SI.com? Absolutely. How is it any different?

If anything, one could say RAS has been doing a disservice to it's own business by not having it's individual people use their own personal Twitter accounts to drive viewers to the RAS web site, for the free content, which would no doubt translate into additional sales.

I also find it odd, and maybe this is just me personally, that Edward would discredit the Pregame.com foundation here, yet post a quote on the RAS website (media/quotes page) from Pregame.com recommending the RAS service.

If Pregame is corrupt and dishonest, and anyone promoting them should be tarred and feathered, then why does RAS themselves have a quote from Pregame.com on their own site....

[illadelphia]

Just want to say & to BTB and Edward for having such a candid discussion on the topic.

Bonus points for doing it on the most boring betting day of the year (yesterday).

That is all.

[SkyBlues42]

(07-13-2012 01:13 PM)kreatture Wrote:  Just to keep things on a factual basis.. BTB has NEVER defended Pregame's Twitter, only RJ Bell's, and he hasn't defended it on behalf of RJ Bell (the Pregame Owner), but rather RJ Bell (the person).

Pregame's Twitter promotes their handicappers packages and sells itself as a tout service. RJ Bell's Twitter rarely, if ever, sends out a tweet about one of his handicapper's picks package. He uses it to promote himself, and his free forum. Are sales generated from RJ driving viewers to the free content at Pregame Forums? Probably. Are sales generated from ESPN's numerous employee personal Twitter accounts driving viewers to ESPN.com, or Sports Illustrated's employee personal Twitter accounts driving viewers to free content on SI.com? Absolutely. How is it any different?

If anything, one could say RAS has been doing a disservice to it's own business by not having it's individual people use their own personal Twitter accounts to drive viewers to the RAS web site, for the free content, which would no doubt translate into additional sales.

I also find it odd, and maybe this is just me personally, that Edward would discredit the Pregame.com foundation here, yet post a quote on the RAS website (media/quotes page) from Pregame.com recommending the RAS service.

If Pregame is corrupt and dishonest, and anyone promoting them should be tarred and feathered, then why does RAS themselves have a quote from Pregame.com on their own site....

This.

[Edward-RAS]

Good point about the Pregame testimonial. Has been up for several years and had I had forgotten about it. Thanks for bringing to my attention. It has already been removed.

I don't think you can speak in support of RJ Bell's (CEO of Pregame.com) personal twitter account (which links to Pregame.com), without at least condoning or being unaware of what goes on at the Pregame site. They are too interconnected. You could only compare it to SI and ESPN writers driving traffic from their own accounts, if you felt that the SI and ESPN sites were selling fraudulent products or misleading their clients in a similar fashion.

[Beyond the Bets]

(07-13-2012 01:13 PM)kreatture Wrote:  I also find it odd, and maybe this is just me personally, that Edward would discredit the Pregame.com foundation here, yet post a quote on the RAS website (media/quotes page) from Pregame.com recommending the RAS service.

If Pregame is corrupt and dishonest, and anyone promoting them should be tarred and feathered, then why does RAS themselves have a quote from Pregame.com on their own site....

Come on now, Edward. Are you seriously showering yourself in praise from Pregame.com on YOUR site? Like, seriously?

What good is an endorsement from "low-hanging fruit?" Not to mention, the fact that you would even allow the Pregame logo to be featured on your site is appalling. I mean, MY GOD! ()

What would happen if somebody clicks the Pregame.com hyperlink that you readily provide on your site:



Isn't it possible that someone could click the Pregame hyperlink, go to Pregame, browse the site, find a handicapper, pay for their picks, lose all their money, divorce their wife, lose their house, lose their kids, all before killing themselves? I mean, that's possible, right?

This is just stunning. And to think: You also had a "service plays" thread on your site!? Why? Because it was popular and was good for traffic? What would happen if a handicapper from a site like Pregame or Covers appeared and - oh MY GOD! - someone actually purchased their plays? Well, what would happen?

Could it be argued that you have helped promote the very people you despise by allowing their picks to be featured in a thread on your message board?

Man, I just can't believe this. How a site that parades itself as a bastion of credibility and integrity could somehow promote an endorsement from industry scum is just ... wow, I'm speechless.

[Edward-RAS]

You are right. Guilty as charged. I've evolved a lot over the years. Hopefully for the better.